A V12 Makes Even the Worst S-Class Great

"DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!" (daft-ryosuke) 06/19/2019 at 19:13 • Filed to: None

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The early-mid 2000s were an unholy time for the German car industry. Seemingly every one of their famed automakers seemed to place quality auto making in the back seat in order to make quicker and easier profits. This led to some majorly atrocious creations such as the W203 C-Class and the E65 7 Series. It even affected what is arguably Germany’s best car ever made, the S-Class.

Some people could stand up and assert that the W220 was the worse of the two, but I find there’s a lot of good found in that otherwise problematic platform. I got considerable amount of seat time in a 220 S500 during my trip to Minnesota in January, and I found myself loving every minute. Plus, the design is considerably aging a lot better than the 221, a car which I thought was ugly when it debuted, and it hasn’t warmed on me over time either.

But what is it like when you look at the best version of the worst S-Class? You find yourself in a rather large conundrum. You can’t say this car is bad, because it isn’t. It’s pleasant to drive, it’s smooth and powerful, it reeks of presence and class. You feel vastly more superior than you actually are when you drive a V12 S-Class, and it’s no different in the W221 S600.

Just look at the quality materials on display on the interior and you can tell just how serious this car was in its day. Even now, it’s hard to disregard just how many industry defining pieces of technology found themselves on this car before everyone else.

And yet, just with most Mercedes of this age, and especially ones that have more than six cylinders, this one is broken. It runs rough and makes noises that are...decidedly uncharacteristic of what was once a $100k+ superlimo. That’s why it currently resides at my work’s wholesale lot for somewhere around $20k.

The W220 will always be my least favorite S-Class (for the considerable future at least), but I understand completely why some people devote their life to these old V12 yachts. There simply isn’t anything else like them on the road, no matter how many other brands try to emulate them.

Tapas > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/19/2019 at 19:19

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Why do all super luxury cars break outside of a warranty?!

Don t maunufacturers and customers consider this as a failure in quality manufacturing if your car cannot last more than 5 years without significant and expensive repairs?!

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Tapas 06/19/2019 at 19:22

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E90M3 > Tapas 06/19/2019 at 19:23

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I think the second and third owners aren’t prepared to drop the necessary cash on upkeep. 

Tapas > E90M3 06/19/2019 at 19:24

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Ah that makes sense.

boredalways > Tapas 06/19/2019 at 19:24

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Almost. Usually the first owner has it on lease so NFT G.

Tapas > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/19/2019 at 19:26

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Lol

It’s a very logical question.

We have just come to expect that these things will shit the bed and blow and hole in your pocket to get some special gasket replaced in the ass end of the engine.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Tapas 06/19/2019 at 19:28

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What E90M3 said. The car is made for the first buyers/leasers, who don’t even keep them long enough for that to really matter. There’s no money in making luxury cars last. The proof is in the pudding, sadly.

Spanfeller is a twat > Tapas 06/19/2019 at 19:36

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From an engineering perspective you can’t certify everything forever. Specially cars; which have complex components that need to survive throughout lots of years, with relatively little maintenance.

Then you need to consider the cost of reenforcing the most vulnerable components compared to the possible profits. Some parts are cheap to reenforce, some are too expensive. 

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/19/2019 at 19:38

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The wheels on this specific car are atrocious, but I don’t understand the 221 hate. It’s a major visual improvement over the 220 and those weird bubbly headlights everyone thought were cool in the early 00s and they’re generally reliable as long as you stay away from the ones with the grenading engines. It still looks modern and has modern features (since, well, it is still modern-ish)

E90M3 > Tapas 06/19/2019 at 20:02

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Seems like people forget that part prices don’t deprecate . I hate paying for both the car and maintenance , now they’re both paid off it’s a lot easier to swallow a large maintenance bill.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/19/2019 at 20:42

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Bad opinion is bad. 140 is the worst S. 221 is a thousand times better than that or 220, in every measurable category.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Tapas 06/19/2019 at 20:49

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They’re still 6 figure cars to maintain, even when the car only costs 4 figures used. More maintenance items. More expensive maintenance parts. Shorter maintenance intervals. People don’t realize this when they but these used. They can’t afford the maintenance. Or don’t think it’s worth the cost. It is. Doing all the maintenance items on time (based on TIME AND MILEAGE, NOT JUST MILEAGE) goes a long way to making these much more reliable than the internet suggests they are.

Also, you wouldn’t believe the number of these that were wrecked in the first couple years of their life and were rebuilt extremely poorly, under the table. To then be sold used to unsuspecting buyers with a clean title/Carfax. Then those buyers wonder why the car never drives straight, clunks, runs rough, whatever. 

DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/19/2019 at 21:47

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Man I’m glad I placed that bet with BlueMazda2 regarding whether or not you’d throw your two cents in here.

Textured Soy Protein > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/19/2019 at 22:02

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The only “ problem” with the 221 is it hopped on that 00s bulgy arcing fender flares trend.

DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 06/19/2019 at 22:07

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Agree on the wheels. AMG wheels on a car of this caliber is just unacceptable.

And I think my dislike for the W221 stems to my dislike of Mercedes and most German cars of this era. I can’t even count how many broken E60s, W221s, and other cars like this I have to deal with on a daily basis at work. It’s a shame cause I do still want an E63 wagon, or hell, a W221 S65, which is a dream car despite it all.

But I still can’t stand the styling. The bubbly headlights on the 220 are very controversial, yes, but the rest of the car is a rather smooth in my opinion. The 221 just seems outdated to me, along with the 212 E-Class and the 204 C-Class.

fintail > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/19/2019 at 22:15

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I don’t get the 221 hate either. The 221 is sooooo much less troublesome from my anecdotal experienc, the styling has aged better from my subjective viewpoint, and most of them are equipped like modern cars, including much higher take rate of Distronic.

I also don’t get the 140 hate though :) , as I see it as the last traditionally styled MB along with the 202.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/19/2019 at 22:30

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I was very close to buying a W212 E but just couldn’t pull the trigger because you’re right, the interior feels so dated. As with the 204, I actually like the outside of the car, but the interior just feels like 1996 (same thing for Lexus). I think it’s because the Mercedes client base tends to be...more mature...than Audi or BMW (again, same for Lexus). 

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > fintail 06/19/2019 at 22:37

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From a strictly aesthetic point of view I prefer the W126 over the W140, and the W220 over the W221. But the technology is so much better on the latter cars in those pairs that is possible to overlook the downgrade in appearance. I find that the W220 is still  a handsome car, but seemed kind of cheap for an S-Class, like it would have been better as an E. I know that this was during their cost-cut ting phase, and it shows, inside and out.

As I told the salesman when I test drove an E60, the best part of the appearance of the car is the fact that I can’t see how ugly it is from the inside...

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/19/2019 at 22:47

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I’ll second this. I knew t his going in when I bought an old E34. Even though it was maintained perfectly by the previous owner it was still an old car and subject to random failures. I knew I was going to be in for some surprises, and I did get hit with several, but it was all anticipated and paid for even though it was just an old, cheap car by then, and that’s why it’s still going strong 30 years after it was built.

But I have different priorities these days, and simpler is better. No sunroof to leak, no power seats to move asymmetrically, no f og lights to pick up rock chips, etc. The strange thing is that my base 2012 economy car is probably better equipped in many ways than my 1989 loaded luxury sedan. It's amazing how things progress in just a decade or two.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Textured Soy Protein 06/19/2019 at 22:49

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You’re not wrong. Actually, I can’t unsee  that. But it’s not as bad as the 220 bubble headlights.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/19/2019 at 22:50

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Who me!? Nah. Actually, what if I said the E38 is the best S? 

fintail > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 06/19/2019 at 22:50

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Definitely, the 126 is a classic beauty, perfectly proportioned, timeless.

A late 220 is surely more reliable than an early car, but I think a 221 is that much easier to live with again.  Add normal 221 features like bluetooth, backup camera, digital gauges, pano, distronic, etc, and it feels newer than it is.   220 is getting old, not necessarily in a good way, although it will likely end up being the rarest S-class survivor in another 20 years.

To my eyes, the overly swoopy interior of an E60 hasn’t aged well either, but I was never into Bangle’s egoistic hype.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 06/19/2019 at 22:52

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Even driving performance a 2012 anything is probably better than most 89 BMW's. Says a lot.

DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/19/2019 at 22:58

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I’m intrigued.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/19/2019 at 23:10

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It isn’t. But it’s top three  for sure!

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/19/2019 at 23:11

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So very true. Both have 2.5l engines and manual transmissions, and with about the same, yet the 2012 minivan, with a horsepower deficit even before you factor in the Dinan parts, is still a quicker car. I'm not going to compare handling because I destroyed the balance of the BMW with big wheels and tires and ill-advised suspension mods.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 06/19/2019 at 23:20

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Wheels and suspension mods are almost always terrible. Unless you spend the money to do it right. I wish more people knew this.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > fintail 06/19/2019 at 23:24

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Agreed. The E60 interior was ugly, but not nearly as ugly as the exterior. I didn’t buy one, and even with time I really haven’t warm ed to the design. Bangle may have pushed the limits of design and made things that were unique in this market, but the clientele are usually a bit more conservative and don’t want a lot of change; he would have been better off doing a 3-series as that segment is more about the badge than the car, even though it’s BMW’s bread and butter model. But that conservatism  can sometimes backfire, as was the case with my dad. When looking to replace his E34 he looked closely at the E39 and said that it was a great car, just like his old one. Based on that he made a questionable decision and bought a W210, an unreliable, poorly built and cheap car that he never really liked when compared to all of his previous BMWs.

Now if I had silly money to throw away on crazy project cars, I’d probably toss the NA V12 into a W126. No need for extreme power, like an AMG biturbo V12 as the lighter W126 should be more than peppy enough with 400 HP. I’ve only driven one V12-equipped car, my old boss’s XJS convertible, and I loved the silky power delivery, like my BMW I6 but somehow even more refined. There aren’t enough ‘o’s in the world to describe how smoooooth that engine was.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/19/2019 at 23:33

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Never again, especially not on a luxury car. I’m happy to have the base model of my minivan, with the smaller 16" wheels and tires. Better ride, cheaper to replace, and more progressive breakaway characteristics at the limit of adhesion.

Yes, I do not drive this minivan like how most minivans are driven. I may be old but I’m not dead, and still have fun pushing my cars. Some, like the freebie Windstar I used to have, we’re absolutely zero fun in this regard, but the Mazda is a playful little thing, but  just don’t rush the 1-2 upshift or you’re playing a losing game of ‘Beat th e Synchro’...

fintail > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 06/19/2019 at 23:45

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I think the E60 only looks good from the side profile, with no front or rear visible. From there, it is a pretty clean modern design that aged well. That front and rear though, ugh, and the interior is the same. Add that to the propensity of the 545 to smoke like an unhappy fintail, and I’d have to give a hard no. Speaking of W210s, I had a late run 210 E55 as a DD for 7 years. It had some quirks and expected AMG running costs, but was generally quite reliable. Some of the materials (dash top , headliner, paint chip resistance) could have been better, but it had great seats and a pretty sweet engine.

If I had silly money for a 126, it would be a 6 liter AMG car, especially a widebody.  I’ve never driven a V12 car, but I will say the I6 in a later run W126 300SE I had ages ago was smooth as silk.  Not fast by any means though.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/20/2019 at 00:15

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So if it runs rough, what’s it take to get all that sorted out? New plugs (24 of them...lmao), maybe a vacuum leak?

Asking for, err, a friend.

wafflesnfalafel > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/20/2019 at 00:17

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I actually kinda like the interior on this car better than the current one - the new one is just so over the top....

Tapas > E90M3 06/20/2019 at 00:22

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Same here

Throwbookatfaces > Tapas 06/20/2019 at 02:32

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Why would you think that reliability is a selling point for luxury sedans? That hasn’t been true for almost 3 decades, which is older than most people reading this. You pay for technology and performance. No different than a Ferrari or a Rolls-Royce. If you are expecting reliability in a flag ship German car , you are stuck living in 1982. If you want reliability and frugality... your options have always been and always will be an Accord or Camry, lol. Know your market. 

Jordan > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/20/2019 at 06:38

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The W221 is a great car. Other than a few models, they are very reliable, regularly racking up hundreds of thousands of miles in Europe as VIP pick-up cars at expensive hotels.

RT > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/20/2019 at 08:09

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Even then…

The W140 has a DOHC V12 with 4 valves per cylinder.

The W220 and W221 have a SOHC V12 with 3 valves per cylinder.

In defence, the W220 did spawn a rather handsome CL — and the W221 introduced some rudimentary self-driving tech.   I don’t dislike either car , but still consider each to be a step backwards from the  over-engineered Benzes of old.

Grneyedqban > Tapas 06/20/2019 at 10:28

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They dont necessarily have issues after 5yrs but service will always be expensive! I had one and after the 5yrs I extended the warranty and currently I do all the work on it myself! Which is still pretty expensive! Oil chang e, instead of $300... its $100! The oil filter differs from most and you need a special tool to drain the pan! Same with my Cadillac... after 5yrs I started doing all the work myself as well but for those who can't... find yourselves a good mechanic or extend the warranty!

Tapas > Throwbookatfaces 06/20/2019 at 11:00

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Good reliability would definitely be a selling point. That’s why Porsche and Lexus are so popular. And there’s no way BMW or any luxury maker can’t make their cars more reliable. It just hasn’t been a part of their equation since a few decades.

After Deming went to Japan and made Toyota’s quality the benchmark in the industry, he was called to speak to GM execs. I believe the story goes like so. He asks the GM execs -

How do you know Cadillacs are better quality than Chevrolets? And if you know they’re better quality, why do you sell Chevrolets at all?

And GM execs weer insulted. Back then, manufacturers associated perception of better quality to luxury cars only.

Toyota managed to associate quality to all their product, regardless of cost. Now luxury manufacturers are trying to convince us that things only work the other way around.

Expensive luxury car? Well of course it will cost a ton to maintain and still shit the bed. Reliability and Frugality don’t have to go hand in hand.  

I f I have something nice that I paid a ton of money for, I want to make sure the thing stays nice and functional for a good while.

Tapas > Grneyedqban 06/20/2019 at 11:32

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That I agree with.

Service and maintenance will always be expensive.

But the service and maintenance frequency required to run the car and number of things that require service and maintenance can be improved on.

I understand this can’t be done for things like oil changes and regular things that all cars need. But other more specialized features, gimmicks and electronics can be more bulletproof. And the car can be designed better for servicability, so labor doesn’t cost an astronomical amount to change that one small part.

DerW220 > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 06/20/2019 at 14:34

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Weird, bubbly, headlights? I’m a bit confused here. Are you mistaking them as overly- large headlights because the front grille and fascia is restrained /conservative ? They were not that large. They were fluent with the body lines to Bruno Sacco and meant to be useful (when xenon lighting began to make waves and still relied on reflector headlights, larger was best way to get better lighting). They also looked better in the pre-facelift to me because of the uniform appearance. '03+  were too busy.

DerW220 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/20/2019 at 14:36

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Al else held equal, the M113 will last just as long as any 221 engine and at much cheaper costs. 

DerW220 > RT 06/20/2019 at 14:43

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The M113 was made for simplicity, cheaper production , etc., and focused on reliability. The 220 wasn’t a step backwards in any sense. It is still one of the most innovative cars in automotive history. More than 300 patents alone for the 220 and the crew tasked with designing just the management systems (even electronic components outsourced to sectors like aerospace) spent many years on it.

It was over-engineered, but not in the traditional way of the company. It was a massive collaborative effort and material science showcase. 

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > DerW220 06/20/2019 at 14:46

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Idk man, I just don’t like them. That little hump is off-putting. Especially with how they stick out in real life. 

DerW220 > fintail 06/20/2019 at 14:49

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Th e 220 facelift has not aged well for me. Original form is still more elegant than 221. 

DerW220 > fintail 06/20/2019 at 14:59

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Late 220 more reliable? Still believing this myth? Not true at all. ABC (much more prominent on facelift cars) is awful an d more expensive to work on compared to Airmatic. Even the COMAND 2.5 system proved more reliable than COMAND-APS.

DerW220 > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 06/20/2019 at 15:09

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I’ve had mine for 8 years now and just disagree. You attached a picture of a facelift (I call them W220.2). The retrofit of projectors into a housing designed for reflector headlights is what makes those look bad. The pre-facelift (the one Bruno Sacco approved) is my favorite.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > DerW220 06/20/2019 at 16:06

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Yes. But the drivetrain is all the 220 has going for it. 221's have their shortcomings of course too though.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > DerW220 06/20/2019 at 16:08

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Unless you're somewhere other than the US and have a short wheelbase version, it's a V220, not a W220. Just FYI.

fintail > DerW220 06/20/2019 at 16:16

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What’s the difference, 7 0% failure rate vs 80% failure rate? I’ ll just skip that entire generation, just like I intend to with W211 and W203.

The headlights of 220s, especially early cars, get to me, as they always look foggy, and xenon wasn’t even standard on earlier run cars.